Photo Credit: Alan Newman via {a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/pdbreen/3318950087/sizes/z/in/photostream/"}pdbreen on Flickr (via Creative Commons){/a}
(Burlington, VT) – The Burlington Free Press has an interview up with Magic Hat Brewing founder and Alchemy and Science (Boston Beer Co. subsidiary) chief, Alan Newman. This quote, piggy-backing on recent discussions around criticism of large craft brewers, grabbed my attention.
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BFP: In your book you say that beer geeks are “one of the industry problems these days.” Can you explain that?
AN: There are two groups out there: beer-lovers and beer geeks. Beer lovers love beer. I’ll put myself in that category. I love and appreciate good beer. Then there are beer geeks who ask questions like, “Have I never heard of it [a beer or brewer] before?” “Is it from a really small brewery?” “Does it have more than 75 I.B.U.’s? [International bittering units – a measure of bitterness related to hops in a beer; 75 is very high.] All they want is highly hopped, high-alcohol beers. They have disdain for the mainstream, but mainstream is what will bring more customers in, what will grow the category. They get very hung up on the size of a brewer and who owns them. Like Goose Island in Chicago is an old craft brewery, very respected. Anheuser-Busch bought something like 25-30 percent of them. So are they still a craft brewer? More importantly, to my mind, do they make craft beers? Does it matter who owns them?
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Thoughts?
I dont see anything wrong with wanting to know where your beer comes from, just like how its a fairly normal concern to want to know where my food and water comes from (for the most part). Therein lies what i believe to be a misconception, because I don’t really care how ‘big’ a brewery is (if i did, id probably shy away from dogfish or FW, and especially sam adams), but i tend to care if theyre owned by multi-national faceless conglomerate that basically peddles the lowest common denominator of what could be considered beer. I dont see why someone cant be both a beer geek and beer lover.
Snobs of all kinds, however, are just annoying.
I think he is confusing “beer geeks” and “beer snobs”, though that is a matter of semantic interpretation. I would consider myself a “geek” because: I love discovering new beer, learning about it and its maker, I make beer, I make beer clones, I encourage friends and coworkers to try new beers, and appreciate generally everything beer-related.
Good beer is good beer….simple as that
If it taste good i will drink it, i like trying new beer even if one of giant beer companies owns part of the craft brew companies. Craft breweries who sold some of their brewery to a giant beer company might have thought “if we can’t beat them we should at least use some of their money.” Beer is made to drink and enjoy not to argue over.
That’s what you do when you aren’t good enough – blame someone else or claim mediocrity is okay.
I think the real problem he has is that Magic Hat doesn’t make good beer.
Interesting comments so far. I agree that there is a facet of the craft beer geek population who are very “snobby” about their beers and their uniqueness. Personally, I am a beer geek who loves to EXPLORE beer. However, if a brewery can’t offer something interesting, or at least a solid example of a particular beer style, I am less likely to pursue their beers. I used to LOVE Magic Hat, but the more beers I have tried, the less I find their beers to be exceptional, or even that good. In the case of Goose Island, I’ve enjoyed their beers and I hope they will still continue to pursue craft beer, but the concern I hear among beer nerds (of all types) is that the AB ownership will encourage “cost cutting” measures which may affect the quality of the beer. Also, like any small business that agrees to any degree of ownership by a large conglomerate, I feel they have lost their roots and their true passion, and are just out to make an extra buck. When money becomes a driving factor in any business, quality tends to wane. Where Sam Adams, New Belgium, and Sierra have thrived is in their ability (not unique to them) to continue to produce high quality, mainstream beers, and at the same time, experiment with new and interesting brews to keep the real beer geeks interested. Some breweries (not to be named here) focus SO much on making interesting beers that their regular line up is, well… non-existent. These breweries don’t have a “conversion” beer, and therefore appeal to the snob, or the Pokemon collector, who is solely intent on the unique beer and not interested in the potential for drawing new people to the craft beer scene. I can only assume they don’t want additional competition for the newest release…
I’ll bet he was quite happy when those who chased what was small and hard to get bought his beers and made helped make Magic Hat succesfull…But now he is not happy being thought of as a sold-out, mass-marketed brand, which is not so fashionable. You can’t have it both ways .
I have no problem buying any beer I like weather it’s hard or easy to get, but I will not buy beer from anyone who talks down and insults his customers.
the beer geek extremists make up such a small population of any brewery’s sales, especially someone like magic hat, it’s kinda embarrassing they’d even pay notice.
He’s just pissed because magic hat doesn’t make any good beer! I but them close to blue moon.
So, the guy who says about A-B purchasing 100% (not 25-30%) Goose Island “Does it matter who owns them?” is the same guy who said “Do not sell the company (IBU- Magic Hat/Pyramid) to KPS Capital Partners, a private equity company that owns North American Breweries, makers of Labatt Blue, Genesee, Dundee and Honey Brown. ”
http://beerpulse.com/2011/11/magic-hat-founder-on-how-pyramid-deal-was-a-mistake-and-how-he-was-forced-out-of-company/
The dude’s very confused, and we can expect to see more of it as craft beer goes through a troubled adolescence.
Some of you just confirmed what he just said. “Magic Hat doesn’t make any good beer.” According to you? That’s your opinion, and it differs from all of those people who purchase their beer. It amazes me that all these Beer Geeks think they can mass produce craft beer better than these established breweries.
A basic timeline of the Magic Hat brewery:
1) They started out as a small brewery in Vermont in 1994
2) They made good beer that was interesting and on the vanguard of the craft beer movement.
3) In 2008 they bought Pyramid
4) Their beer, though still good, became less interesting and more widely distributed. Much like the beer of the company that it bought.
5) In 2010 the corporation was sold to NAB
6) Anyone that calls themselves a beer lover has no interest in the marginalized products that either Magic Hat or Pyramid produces.
This has nothing to do with people being beer geeks and has everything to do with breweries whose products have a taste profile that is bland due to the want to sell them to more people instead of producing beer that is assertive. I’m not saying that Magic Hat makes bad beer any more than I’d say that Budweiser makes bad beer. What I’m saying is that they make boring beer and their products are shadows of their former selves or are poor attempts at following trends in the industry.
In the end, Magic Hat chose to produce beer with less taste because it appeals to more people and will make them more money. I understand this from a business standpoint. However, I refuse to support it.
Cliffs: Alan Newman is a sell-out and I’ve got no time for the opinions of people who place profit over quality.
Excellent work as always, jesskidden! 🙂
I’m just confused why any perspective is bad? If you want to appeal to mainstream drinkers that is fine. There isn’t an intrinsic link between appealing to one market and despising the other. This all being the case, it is obvious that beer “geeks,” if you will, are very vocal in their own communities. But these communities are usually internet-based and do almost NO damage to the mainstream market. Bashing them is equally as foolish as the “geeks” bashing Magic Hat. Neither is productive.
Also, as a personal note, I quite dislike the products of Magic Hat.
Great discussion. A similar debate is going on here in northern Indiana. Recently two new breweries have opened.
The first has chosen to focus on lower gravity, easier drinking ales and lagers aimed more toward mainstream tastes. They also have a larger brewing operation and a bottling line, allowing them to keg their beer for local restaurants and bars and have recently begun selling six packs at local bottle shops. They have a small taproom with limited hours.
The second is a very small brewery specializing in a wide variety of higher gravity brews with a fair amount of experimentation. Their beers are currently only available at the taproom, which is very inviting and is open more days for longer hours.
I have no idea which business model is more successful at this point in time, but as far as I’m concerned there is room for both breweries in the area. I personally am more excited by and have gravitated more toward the second brewery because it suits my tastes, but they don’t necessarily have a “conversion” or “starter” beer: even their lower ABV cream ale is quite hoppy. The first brewery, however, has very little to offer the adventurous craft beer enthusiast, though they have recently begun to offer a couple bigger, more complex types of beers.
At the end of the day, for me it’s all about the beer. Good beer will keep me coming back. A third brewery is opening soon in my area, and from my understanding they will offer a couple lower ABV “starter” beers as well as some bigger, more adventurous stuff. Exciting times for beer in what was just a few years ago a craft brew backwater.
I admit, I am skeptical of large corporations taking over craft breweries. We’ve already seen Goose Island announce that, aside from the Bourbon County line, they will not be offering most of their bigger beers during this calendar year. This is a big concern for craft brew enthusiasts: what if my favorite brewery gets bought up by the big guys and the lineup gets slashed to a few crowd pleasers? My guess is another small craft brewer will open and fill that void (Greenbush?). These are interesting times. Stay tuned. And lets not let the few people talking out their asses (beer snobs or corporate sellouts) ruin a good time for us. Cheers!
I think the issue with Magic Hat really is a problem with positioning – yes, they make decent enough, easily accessible beer, but, let’s be honest… a lot of people do that. What they lack is the ability to generate interest in their products, and it’s something that they haven’t seemed particularly interested in doing. So now they go and shoot the messenger because they took a certain path with their product mix that makes them seem overly safe, and perhaps even boring.
You don’t need to go full-on eccentric like Dogfish Head to appeal to craft beer geeks and the extreme beer crowd… in fact, there are many regional craft breweries that have both accessible, sessionable beers with mass appeal as well as having a bevy of specialty and experimental beer options. It’s not the fault of the beer geek that Magic Hat has one of the two things down and paid almost no attention to the other.
Well I gotta agree with the others. I care where my beer, food, clothing and other products come from. I am trying to be a responsible consumer and not buy from companies that ignore workers rights, animal rights, legal competition and good business practices. Hence why I try to not buy from abinbev and millercoors subsidiaries. Goose Island is a sell out, not because they sold, but because who they sold to. Sounds like Magic Hat is in the same boat. Too bad, I hate to see good craft brewers make these types of mistakes.
Adam, as a journalist, you should really keep your opinions to yourself (in both your replies to comments and your occasional banter within posts). It’s distracting and unprofessional. It’s beernews, not beerblog. I can form opinions for myself.
Hi htom,
I write for a passionate fan base and beer people. Not Bloomberg financial analysts. I will continue to use my website to share and occasionally journalize how I see fit. The ‘journalist’ hat is only one of many that I wear as part of running this thing from the ground up.
What did you notice here in particular? I did enthusiastically tip my hat to jesskidden if that’s what you are referring to…was that it?
I hope you keep enjoying the site.
Cheers,
Adam
The response from the brewery owner was yet another variant of the dogfishhead/sam adams perspective which is essentially, “if you do not like our beers it is because there is something fundamentally wrong with you as a beer drinker/consumer.” Bullshit. The creme rises to the top and mediocre crap (of which there is A LOT by the way) falls to the gutters.
You all realize that Alan no longer has anything to do with Magic Hat and was essentially pushed out due to the NAB buy.
If half the commenters here took a moment to educate themselves on who Alan is, and also read the text of what Adam wrote which clearly indicates HE NO LONGER WORKS FOR MAGIC HAT, it might elucidate a small level of thought in the process.
Insofar as his comments which seem directly applied to Goose Island, I think all he is saying is that it does not matter the sale, or ownership as long as the beer is good. Whereas it would be completely sour grapes and ridiculous for him to use Magic Hat as an example as it was a bad ending there for him.
It’s entirely possible that Goose Island will go south, but they should probably ACTUALLY do that before people presume their death by association.
It’s great to live in America where we can always state our opinion and free speech, but seriously just because you have a forum and some success does not mean you act pompous and all knowing.
The beer scene will still be drinking beer if this clown is working or not. If there were no beer geeks, lovers, raters, snobs, etc this guy wouldn’t have a job. He should be thankful he has a job, is doing what I would hope he loves and sharing that gift with people. Don’t piss off your customers and tell them what to say, like/dislike. The bigger micro brewers seem to have let their success go right to their head. Mediocre beer is what most of them are putting out anymore anyway.
If you “consider yourself” anything as it relates to consumerism, you’re just an idiot. You’re a not a geek or a snob or a lover: you’re just stupid. Beer or otherwise. Stop trying to shoehorn yourselves into a particular category. Just be a real person and do things without boundary or definition.
@John, in what part does he act pompous and all knowing? “This clown” was an instrumental force in developing the beer scene, for geeks, lovers, raters and snobs. You wouldn’t have some of the choice you have if it was not for pioneering “clowns” like Mr. Newman. I am sure he is pretty thankful he has a job. As far as telling customers what to say, I think he is doing exactly the opposite.
People keep on fighting semantics arguments over things recently said by Sam C, Jim K and now Alan. He is not telling people what to like or suggesting he is better than anyone, they are all suggesting that more advocacy happen then complaining, about superficial data points. If the beer is good, that is all that should matter at the end of the day.
If things such as size matter, then just support those breweries with your wallet, but mediocrity is often a word substituted for not unique enough these days.
I’ve spent a lot of time watching the growth of beer reviewers on blogs, youtube and sites such as Beer Advocate and Rate Beer the passed five years. And while at the end of the day if a beer does not appeal to you taste wise, that is perfectly fine, their is an abundance of ill informed “reviewers” who don’t know malt from hops, IBUs from ABV that make bold claims that are just downright misleading and potentially harmful to a brewery.
In that sense Alan is quite correct, there is more danger for a craft brewery these days from within the craft community of consumers than there is from macro production breweries.
More like Tragic Crap.
That’s a pretty broad statement on his part. But I think he forgets that if it wasn’t for beer geeks (sic), he wouldn’t have a job. Way to bite the hand that feeds.
It’s incredibly naive for anyone who likes craft beer to make the statement that Anheuser-Busch and the other big breweries. Unless of course you’re in their pocket, which is sounds like Magic Hat will be (that’s probably the only thing that’ll save their languishing business). Does the phrase “100% share of mind” ring a bell? How about how they backed legislation in Alabama to ban beers over 6% (2009)? A-B and their large competitors are businesses and they’ll use their assets to muscle out smaller competition. If they had it their way they’d own it all and wouldn’t give a rat’s ass about what you want.
I like Magic Hat even less than I did before (which wasn’t much). Thanks for giving me another beer to ignore, Alan.
I cannot believe the founder of Magic Hat said that. That statement is ridiculous on several levels. I was unaware that beer geeks only like extremely hoppy beers. I was also unaware that such preferences were a problem. I was not a huge fan of Magic Hat before (I do think the #9 has a place in the beer world) and am even less of a fan now. I am simply at a loss for words….
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The only reason you all are butt hurt over this statement is because you ARE that guy Alan Newman speaks of. You recognize you are that guy, you refuse to admit to yourself that you are that guy, and you try and convince yourself otherwise.
Lame. With no name.
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